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 Builder Abuse?

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johndoe138



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PostSubject: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:19 am

I hate to be an ass, and I fear I may fail at avoiding it here. But whatever the facts behind the situation here, this stuff is getting to be too much and is very much ruining much of what was fun about this server to begin with.

Now.. as I've always understood it, Builder position were to help Cav build server towns. Not to build up one's own personal town. Indeed, I thought doing this was a bannable offense.

For the increasingly small number of us who have not applied for Builder, it has been no small concern that so many mayors/assistants of (private) towns on the server have been given this position. It's long been suspected that there was exploitation, but it's not exactly the sort of thing it's easy to catch someone at.


So.. let me just say that I don't know the background here. All I know is what I saw: A builder, BIGFAIRY, using WorldEdit to work on his own town's land - Riften. I was browsing the Dynamap before getting on, as I usually do to look for griefing - saw a nice big flat section of land right across from Riften (screenshot 1) that hadn't been there last night.

Then, as I watched, things started changing - wall sections popping up, disappearing, etc. - in just a few seconds. Then finally a tower popped up (screenshot 2) . I recognized that from a medieval building bundle you can download. I use WorldEdit in singleplayer mode, so I knew it was the copy/paste command. About 30 seconds later it switched positions (screenshot 3), so really no doubt about that.


As you can see in the 4th screenshot, BIGFAIRY claims he has permission for this. Cav actually wants Riften to be a server town.


I don't know if that's true. I can't say I find it especially plausible, but I could be wrong. I might point out that it has regular residents like any other private town, is still (trying) recruiting more.. belongs to a nation, etc. Doesn't seem much like a server town, in short. But again, who knows.








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johndoe138



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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:26 am

I used to really love this server. I hate to say, but that's starting to wane.

It's not a pleasant feeling to spend 4 hours using sand to fill in a small piece of ocean.. and then see some other mayor Worldedit themselves a nice flat space to work on. And then populate it with premade buildings.

Minescape has become half a creative server. And I kind of wish I'd known that was going to happen before I wasted so much time doing legitimate terraforming and building.


And really that goes whether this, and all the many other random Builder-ed crap popping up on the map, are 'approved' or not.

It really hurts all the legitimately build stuff when there's so much illegit stuff mixed in. This why I never liked the Builder thing to begin with. At first, at least, the handful of Builders - who were generally the trustworthy, unbiased sort - did seem to limit themselves to fixing Bale-owned roads and working on server cities. That was reasonable; that I could live with.

But now the positions have been handed out like penny-candy to pretty much anyone who could merely fill out the form, and all this random stuff is popping up.. and it really doesn't feel like there's any point to legit building anymore. It's also a bit alarming that there are Builders who are members of partisan towns/nations, sometimes aggressive in nature, who have the ability to completely go around Towny protection.
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BIGFAIRY



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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:00 am

ok problem 1 ya want to post a chat get the full convo and add it lol
2nd thing nowhere along the lines did i say Riften was going to be a city of the sever nor my residents there so i can claim plots ya juts sooking coz i recruted 2 of your players. im just using my town name so i can claim the plots once im finished i move cave knows this coz i get bord of the finished 1 so mate don't jump and start pointing at ppl ok god damn crying like my son
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CavGunner
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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:41 pm

BIG only has that land temporarily. I asked him to build a town for me, and I uploaded various schematics for him to help speed the process along.
Since I've no way to protect the town as of now, I asked if he could use Riften to protect it until I could get the FalsePlayers set up properly.
He plans on moving as soon as the construction is complete, leaving the town for me and carrying on with his own projects.

I make sure that the Builders only use their powers for Server related activity, and nothing personal.
I can understand how this may have looked like exploitation, and I apologize.
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dionnsai



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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:19 pm

On a more general note, I have to say that drz raises alot of important issues in regards to the use of both help and builder positions and the appropriately low comfort level of those of us who have towns/cities and chose not to seek those positions.

I speak for myself here, but I think I probably echo drz's feelings when I say, it's a little worrying when the dominating force on the server is also heavily populated with builder and help class folks.

Generally speaking (and this is from the few other servers I've played on) you look to your admin, help/mod/builder...whatever you want to call them to be more of a neutral force, and here they really aren't. They're all concentrated in one place.

As an example, the server I previously played on segregated the mods from the general playerbase in a few ways. It was a more pvp oriented rpg server mind you, but:

Clan Members and Clan leaders were exempted from eligibility for Mod positions, however
Moderators were the only folks who could own/run the server towns. Yes, it does mean they have less incentive to apply to act as mods, because of course, they can't engage as much in the pvp actions and such. However this also meant that in disputes over things like griefing, combat logging, etc...they were a neutral acting force and were not going to make decisions biased by their personal loyalties.

Unfortunately here, I've seen several occasions over the previous months where the mod level staff on the server (this goes all the way back to Cyrus and Kirvin btw...) used/abused or threatened to use their powers when engaged in combat or some other dispute with someone and they thought they had done something wrong. Now clearly, if someone is violating the rules in combat or anywhere else, they should get a ban or whatever else is coming to them. However it does raise the question of abuse, when the person doing the banning/jailing was involved in the situation and his or her judgement is guaranteed to be colored by the events in which he had participated. I think everyone would be much more comfortable with a neutral party reviewing both sides of the story.

I know the response is coming, but I'm sorry, I don't think any of these folks can truly promise to offer a truly fair judgement when they cannot truly act as a neutral party. This is very clearly evidenced in our real world judicial systems where certain parties are disallowed from sitting as jurors in cases to which they may have a personal interest, and where judges and attorneys present must recuse themselves from cases where they have any personal interest or involvement. I know this is a bit heavy handed for what should be a lighthearted gaming server, however it is also true, irrefutable and undeniable.

As for builders, they're human, you've given them a fairly useful power and they are bound to use it, mostly in small unnoticeable ways when no-one is looking, but they will use it. Honestly...in this case, I don't really give a flying fart if they worldedit their entire town into existance, it doesn't personally bother me, but it does slap you a little wrong when you've spent hours and hours piling up bricks to build this or that whatnot. Now if they cuboid a 24x24x24 cube of diamonds into the earth under their base...that might be a little screwy, but I digress. It's against the rules so they shouldn't.

My $0.02.


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Zessus

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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:06 pm

Cav all ready said it was for him. Bigfairy has been building towns for Cav and temporarily living in them while he builds them. No rules being broken there.

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CavGunner
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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:14 pm

In the case of Help abusing powers;
In all cases, I make the final say. I don't care if there are 20 people flipping them upwards 20 miles of sunday, I will always decide the final outcome.
If the power is abused (in the case of jailing) to "threaten" someone, then their Help title will be revoked.

As is the case of Builder.
I'm aware of the temptation, but any use for personal use result in a revocation of the power.


I don't care what town people are from, I let anyone apply. If they follow through with the application, completed and proper, then I'll accept them.
I'm not the only one who makes decisions on the applications. The rest of the Development Team looks at them and votes, as well.
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dionnsai



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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:36 pm

I think we understand that, I think it's more a matter of those of us who aren't "in the club" so to speak expressing our not entirely undeserved reservations towards the nature of the system. That said, it's the way things are done here, so I guess that's that.

CavGunner wrote:
In the case of Help abusing powers;
In all cases, I make the final say. I don't care if there are 20 people flipping them upwards 20 miles of sunday, I will always decide the final outcome.
If the power is abused (in the case of jailing) to "threaten" someone, then their Help title will be revoked.

As is the case of Builder.
I'm aware of the temptation, but any use for personal use result in a revocation of the power.


I don't care what town people are from, I let anyone apply. If they follow through with the application, completed and proper, then I'll accept them.
I'm not the only one who makes decisions on the applications. The rest of the Development Team looks
at them and votes, as well.

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Zessus

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PostSubject: Re: Builder Abuse?   Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:29 pm

In defense of all the builders and Helpers. I have not Whitnessed nor heard of anyone abusing these powers. I know having the powers is a great temptation (I'm a builder and helper) but I have not seen anyone jailed since I've become a helper. Ive never used my helper powers for I have not needed to yet. All I've so far as a helper was answer questions to the best of my ability. I've been an admin on 4 servers and a mod on 5. And a whitlister on one of those. The only time I've seen any type of abuse was enfourvie's builder rage
Which was taken care of and he's cool now. I really do believe that people are starting to point fingers at the Empire in spite now and I'm not liking it. It's actually offending me because we are not evil people. We're normal minecrafters like everyone else not power hungry savages that want all the server powers to abuse them. I. Speaking for us all. Wanted those powers to help the best sever I've played on so far. I've never donated before and after a week of this server I wanted to donate to it and I did. It's all ready been said that bigfairy did not abuse his powers from Cav and I'm requesting that this be locked.

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