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 Races/Professions

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CavGunner
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:42 am

AKJBSFVGAHBGJFHKJHFVA.
Thick.

Hmm.
Well. My way makes more sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:47 am

It would be much better to have:

Races
Elf: Good at shooting bows, and magic.
Human: Good at gathering and sneaking.
Orc: Good at killing in open combat.
Dwarf: Good at crafting and mining.

Professions
Weaponsmith: Can craft high-end swords and other weapons.
Armoursmith: Can craft high-end Armour.
Toolsmith: Can craft high-end Tools.
etc
etc
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:55 am

For the races, I was planning on making the crafting more diverse.
I really should have mentioned this.
Let me break it town:

Elves: Can craft bows, arrows, spears, axes, daggers, and staves.
Humans: Can craft pickaxes, shovels, battleaxes, fishing rods, and shears.
Orcs: Can craft maces, hammers, battleaxes, spears, and claymores.
Dwarves: Can craft armour, hammers, and pickaxes.

This is EXTREMELY rough at the moment. I just wrote it down quickly.
I might remove fishing rods and shears from being race-specific. I most likely will.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:42 am

Enfourvie wrote:
It would be much better to have:

Races
Elf: Good at shooting bows, and magic.
Human: Good at gathering and sneaking.
Orc: Good at killing in open combat.
Dwarf: Good at crafting and mining.

Professions
Weaponsmith: Can craft high-end swords and other weapons.
Armoursmith: Can craft high-end Armour.
Toolsmith: Can craft high-end Tools.
etc
etc
I like this alot better, sorry, Cav.
It should be WeaponSmith - Able to make the best of each kind of weapons
ArmorSmith - Crafts the bests armors.
ToolSmith - Can Craft the best tools and stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:31 am

Regardless, I'm restricting crafting.
Whether it's through Professions or Races.

Races it the most likely option, with Professions being able to craft higher-quality stuff.
(Eg, Races will be able to control the TYPE of weapon you can craft, while Professions control the MATERIAL).
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:35 am

CavGunner wrote:
mightylcanis wrote:
I'd prefer Races. :3

Edit: Without forced skins, if you're going to implement skins for races, make it a choice.

Zessus wrote:
I don't like the races idea using them as a determine of what you can craft. I wanted races as they get bonuses to certain things like humans can do more damage with a sword or elves can do more with a bow and dwarves get more armor and orcs have a little of more armor and a little of more weapons damage for swords but not as high as the humans or dwarves. Do that and do the professions. I REALLY don't like this whole forcing stuff on people. 70% of people HATE IT when they can't use their own skin or texture pack. Bottom line is forcing stuff is a popularity killer. It sounds nice but all it does is make people mad. But yeah the races thing is stupid. I'd like ot be able to craft armor but I want to be a human. With that im FORCED to be a dwarf to be able to craft the armor that I want to craft.


Races are winning so far.
I probably won't force skins, though. Very few people like that idea.

@Zessus:
Right now, it's one or the other. Races were meant to be implemented when the server first came up, so they WILL happen regardless.
Each Race will have a bonus, but realistically the plan was to have it so that certain races can do certain things.
If you want to be a Human, you can...but nothing's stopping you from buying armour from a Dwarf.
We will be forcing a crafting limiter somehow, whether it's through Professions or Races, and Races allow us to do much more specifically.
The main idea is to heal the economy and have it so one person can't do everything. Look at Articuno. Right now, he can switch to and do pretty much anything he wants. We have to limit that somehow. We don't want controlling
players, because then new players feel useless.

I understand that, that's why I think you should have it where you ONLY get one class and if you decide to switch your class then you lose all the levels of your previous class so people actually have a role and isn't just another player. I just don't like the fact that I can't do my RP correctly becuase if I RP I'm a human. It's what my character is he's a human paladin. I know the server isn't hardcore RP but it does have RP to an extent and it will be much more RP based with those classes coming out. I just think it'd be better if you limited the professions just with a profession and then gave bonuses for your race. Look at WoW and all the other MMORPGs they don't limit what you can craft from your race. They do it from your profession or job. All the races do is limit what classes you can be and what your bonuses are. I don't think an orc would be a very good mage lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:42 am

Zessus wrote:
I understand that, that's why I think you should have it where you ONLY get one class and if you decide to switch your class then you lose all the levels of your previous class so people actually have a role and isn't just another player. I just don't like the fact that I can't do my RP correctly becuase if I RP I'm a human. It's what my character is he's a human paladin. I know the server isn't hardcore RP but it does have RP to an extent and it will be much more RP based with those classes coming out. I just think it'd be better if you limited the professions just with a profession and then gave bonuses for your race. Look at WoW and all the other MMORPGs they don't limit what you can craft from your race. They do it from your profession or job. All the races do is limit what classes you can be and what your bonuses are. I don't think an orc would be a very good mage lol.

"I would think that Races limit the crafting, and Professions give bonuses to certain crafting skills.
Realistically, it should be that:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith. I know how to create bows and augment them! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I can still make bows, but now I can improve armour for my friend _____!"

Not:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith! I can create swords and other weapons! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I completely forgot how to make swords now, even though I've been doing it for a long time! All I can make is armor!"

See the problem?"
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:14 am

CavGunner wrote:
Zessus wrote:
I understand that, that's why I think you should have it where you ONLY get one class and if you decide to switch your class then you lose all the levels of your previous class so people actually have a role and isn't just another player. I just don't like the fact that I can't do my RP correctly becuase if I RP I'm a human. It's what my character is he's a human paladin. I know the server isn't hardcore RP but it does have RP to an extent and it will be much more RP based with those classes coming out. I just think it'd be better if you limited the professions just with a profession and then gave bonuses for your race. Look at WoW and all the other MMORPGs they don't limit what you can craft from your race. They do it from your profession or job. All the races do is limit what classes you can be and what your bonuses are. I don't think an orc would be a very good mage lol.

"I would think that Races limit the crafting, and Professions give bonuses to certain crafting skills.
Realistically, it should be that:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith. I know how to create bows and augment them! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I can still make bows, but now I can improve armour for my friend _____!"

Not:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith! I can create swords and other weapons! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I completely forgot how to make swords now, even though I've been doing it for a long time! All I can make is armor!"

See the problem?"

Cav, race determining what you can make makes no sense.
People are not born with the ability to make diamond swords, they learn the skill over time.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:17 am

Enfourvie wrote:
CavGunner wrote:
Zessus wrote:
I understand that, that's why I think you should have it where you ONLY get one class and if you decide to switch your class then you lose all the levels of your previous class so people actually have a role and isn't just another player. I just don't like the fact that I can't do my RP correctly becuase if I RP I'm a human. It's what my character is he's a human paladin. I know the server isn't hardcore RP but it does have RP to an extent and it will be much more RP based with those classes coming out. I just think it'd be better if you limited the professions just with a profession and then gave bonuses for your race. Look at WoW and all the other MMORPGs they don't limit what you can craft from your race. They do it from your profession or job. All the races do is limit what classes you can be and what your bonuses are. I don't think an orc would be a very good mage lol.

"I would think that Races limit the crafting, and Professions give bonuses to certain crafting skills.
Realistically, it should be that:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith. I know how to create bows and augment them! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I can still make bows, but now I can improve armour for my friend _____!"

Not:

"I'm an Elf Weaponsmith! I can create swords and other weapons! I don't like my job, so I'm switching to an Armorsmith! I completely forgot how to make swords now, even though I've been doing it for a long time! All I can make is armor!"

See the problem?"

Cav, race determining what you can make makes no sense.
People are not born with the ability to make diamond swords, they learn the skill over time.
Sums it all up. Just make it Professions, not races.
Isn't the point of this thread to hear what WE think?
Most all of us has said Professions.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:44 am

I'm going to put it in yet another way.

Different races are likely to use various weapons.
Example;
The English were likely to use longswords in medieval times, whereas the Saracens were likely to use spears and scimitars.
Each race has it's own armaments.
Therefore, it is more likely that a race is able to make it's own types of weapons.
Why make a weapon or tool if it's not something you use?

Dwarves should have pickaxes. They go underground.
They're known to be amazing blacksmiths, so I gave them armour;
Where the quality matters more than that of the quality of a weapon (If your weapon breaks, you're better off than if your armour breaks).

Orcs don't.
Traditionally, Orcs are a warring race. They're more likely to use large, powerful weapons with little armour (Traditionally leather and possibly iron breastplates and shinguards, at most).

Elves are not a warring nation, in tradition (Skyrim changed that...). Bows, thieves, MAYBE magic.
Hence daggers, bows, spears and staves.
They usually live in forests, so I gave them axes.

Humans live in homes aboveground, traditionally. Therefore, they have shovels and tools to build.
They're normally the "Neutral" race, so I gave them basic weaponry.


Professions, on the other hand, were MEANT to be designed (When I brought them up for the very first time) to IMPROVE certain abilities.
Getting better as a Weaponsmith means you'd be able to make BETTER weapons of your chosen race (Lapis swords, Netherrack swords, Dragon swords, Obsidian swords, etc etc), or add augmentations to weapons of other races (Making a weapon sharper, or adding spikes is universal).
Everyone could know how to make a wooden or stone tool or weapon, since the ideas are pretty basic...but you wouldn't naturally KNOW how to make a higher quality weapon unless you've been doing it a long time.

All the Races are going to start in different areas, never seeing or interacting under normal circumstances. Then something happens and they collide...and now they can work together or against each other for whatever reasons the think of.

When you grow up as a certain race, you are then tuned with that race. You're not going to change a tradition all of a sudden, solely because you grew up with that tradition.
If you grew up seeing your family and friends wielding maces and battleaxes, you're not going to grab a dagger...because then all your friends would laugh at you.


The sole reason I'm not making a "Magically attuned Race" is because I'd prefer to keep the 3 sections separate;

Your CLASS will determine your skills, and combat ability. As well as what you can wear and wield.
Your RACE will determine your crafting ability and your Race Bonus, as certain races will be naturally better at certain things.
Your PROFESSIONS will determine what you IMPROVE in (Not what you can DO).


These are the views of myself and the Development Team.
We're attempting to bring the economy under control by forcing in a non-player-controllable factor, which didn't currently exist.
Before, players could become any class freely, because we chose against the removal of exp when you wanted to change, so you could pick the class you LIKED playing, but COULD change back if you wanted to, or an upcoming situation called for it.
Shifting crafting means that you will need to rely on other players if you want something.


So, as a summary of everything I just said, the current plan is;
1) Each Race will limit crafting of certain tools, weapons, and armour.
2) Professions will be designed to IMPROVE those weapons and armour, as well as improve existing weapons and armour of other races (Eg, combining an Iron Sword with a Flint to sharpen it).
3) Classes will remain how they are and continue with the original plan of Class Trainers.
4) Professions will have their own trainers.
5) New players will be placed inside a building where they will choose a Race after having everything explained to them, about each Race.
6) Races will each start in their own city in a newly created world designed for this purpose, and will carry through with a few cutscenes and quests to give them some starter equipment and get them into the Hero class.
7) They will then be transported to the Bale Docks and can either jump into the ocean to start their own adventure, or continue into Bale and do some more quests, eventually finding a main Quest Chain and go through a Story Lore.


This was an altered plan of the original created by the DT.
We are asking for opinions SOLELY because we need the major flows pointed out and hopefully get other ideas we can implement.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:40 am

Ok, that did sum it down better but I'm still resilient. Humans were like almost never the neutral race. They're always the defenders though, but when they're provoked they're good at one hand weapons. Not just basic stuff. You have to think fantasy medieval, the humans off WoW are pretty much the super power. They lead the alliance and have all the technology (with the help of the dwarves and gnomes). On WoW the humans actually have a ship called the Skybreaker, it has hovering helicopter like propellers and a freaking nuclear bomb in the bomb bay lol. Point is for me is you have most of the other stuff right but the humans were good at a little of everything not just the basic stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:00 am

I am COMPLETELY ok with this on the condition that all Tier 2 classes and beyond retain the ability to craft iron picks, along with the normal wood/stone tools. Armor I rarely wear anyway (I'm a mage, I'm not supposed to be close to the front even if my mana costs don't agree with that).

So long as my main basic tools aren't removed from me (Basically, so long as I have something that gather everything an iron pick could) then I'm fine. I'm interpreting Cav's last post to mean that races and professions will limit more the BONUS crafting recipes we will receive through spout, and a very minor effect on what we can already make.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:23 am

Half of the Empire is all ready raging over the races limiting your crafting. I'm starting a petition if you agree to Enfour's idea about this or mine, or cav's say +1 (person's name you agree with) as a reply.

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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:37 am

The longer post made more sense and seems like you have a real plan of what to do. Please leave iron picks off that list of truncated things. On the off-chance we have another population drain because bukkit isn't the most recent minecraft build, it would suck to be a guy not able to craft his own picks and at least dig holes by himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:44 am

In my opinion, races should encourage different actions (fighting styles, classes, crafting), but not limit them to.

While professions should limit the crafting of items (and maybe even gathering of items and materials if you want to go that far)

CavGunner wrote:
Different races are likely to use various weapons.
Example;
The English were likely to use longswords in medieval times, whereas the Saracens were likely to use spears and scimitars.
Each race has it's own armaments.
Therefore, it is more likely that a race is able to make it's own types of weapons.
Why make a weapon or tool if it's not something you use?

But that doesn't mean that all Englishmen could make were longswords. It was the race that meant they were more likely to learn to make and use longswords because of their culture, however if an Englishman went to the middle east on a crusade say, and stayed there, opened up a blacksmith, he might learn to make Scimitars and spears.

CavGunner wrote:

Dwarves should have pickaxes. They go underground.
They're known to be amazing blacksmiths, so I gave them armour;
Where the quality matters more than that of the quality of a weapon (If your weapon breaks, you're better off than if your armour breaks).

They're also known to use Axes, maces, and Hammers. Dwarves are the race that prides itself on ALL craftsmanship, and they care for their weapons as much as their armour, however because they are not fast enough to evade most attacks, they wear a lot of armour, relying on this instead of speed and agility. They have evolved to reflect this somewhat; they are stocky and powerfully built. Meaning they find it easier to summon the strength to forge a suit of armour or a hammer.

I would suggest making dwarves slower, but be able to take more damage, and have a bonus to their crafting of armour and weapons. eg: when they craft armour or tools it comes with an enchantment already. Possibly increased ore drop chances.

Warhammer Dwarves
These dwarves cannot use magic, are hard to kill, like to make rune-enchanted weaponry armour, and can make good machinery. And slow.

WOW Dwarves
These dwarves are good and making both armour and weapons, are powerfully built and hard to kill. And slow.

LotR Dwarves
These dwarves are secretive, good at crafting armour and weapins, are powerfully built, slow, and hard to kill.

CavGunner wrote:

Orcs don't.
Traditionally, Orcs are a warring race. They're more likely to use large, powerful weapons with little armour (Traditionally leather and possibly iron breastplates and shinguards, at most).

I agree here, I would suggest giving them a damage boost and possibly a beserk skill of some kind.

Orcs are fairly set in stone

CavGunner wrote:

Elves are not a warring nation, in tradition (Skyrim changed that...). Bows, thieves, MAYBE magic.
Hence daggers, bows, spears and staves.
They usually live in forests, so I gave them axes.

They really aren't theives, but again that depends on the universe they are in. MOST of the time they are VERY competent at magic, and with bows. Sometimes also good armour and weapon making. And they NEVER cut their forest down xD. No axes definitely.

I'd suggest giving them a boost to ranged combat and magic. (maybe a mana boost?)

Elves are the hardest to pin down to any one steriotype.
LotR Elves
LotR elves are long lived, good at crafting armour and weapons (not as good as dwarves)
are faster than humans and are talented at magic

Inheritance Elves
Are VERY good at magic, good at making weapons, good with bows, and don't cut down their trees.

Warhammer Elves
Very good at magic, some are good building elegant buildings, while others talk to the trees. Are fast and good at making weapons and armour.

CavGunner wrote:

Humans live in homes aboveground, traditionally. Therefore, they have shovels and tools to build.
They're normally the "Neutral" race, so I gave them basic weaponry.

Humans are the Neutral race I agree, they have the most crime, but also can be very good and quick thinkers. They are also very good at surviving. Humans are the most curious, and so therefore do lots of exploring and wandering.

I'd give them a boost to speed and increased drops for above ground resource gathering. (and maybe slightly reduced cooldowns for skills?)

CavGunner wrote:

Professions, on the other hand, were MEANT to be designed (When I brought them up for the very first time) to IMPROVE certain abilities.
Getting better as a Weaponsmith means you'd be able to make BETTER weapons of your chosen race (Lapis swords, Netherrack swords, Dragon swords, Obsidian swords, etc etc), or add augmentations to weapons of other races (Making a weapon sharper, or adding spikes is universal).
Everyone could know how to make a wooden or stone tool or weapon, since the ideas are pretty basic...but you wouldn't naturally KNOW how to make a higher quality weapon unless you've been doing it a long time.

This is good, I like this, but at the same time, an elf should still be able to craft a sword or a set of armour if he wants to go and learn how.

CavGunner wrote:

When you grow up as a certain race, you are then tuned with that race. You're not going to change a tradition all of a sudden, solely because you grew up with that tradition.
If you grew up seeing your family and friends wielding maces and battleaxes, you're not going to grab a dagger...because then all your friends would laugh at you.

The way to simulate this would be like I have said, to add bonuses for each race to using a certain type of weapon, crafting a certain item or performing a certain action.

CavGunner wrote:

The sole reason I'm not making a "Magically attuned Race" is because I'd prefer to keep the 3 sections separate;

All I can say is that adding a magically attuned race would spice up the way mages do things.


CavGunner wrote:

These are the views of myself and the Development Team.
We're attempting to bring the economy under control by forcing in a non-player-controllable factor, which didn't currently exist.
Before, players could become any class freely, because we chose against the removal of exp when you wanted to change, so you could pick the class you LIKED playing, but COULD change back if you wanted to, or an upcoming situation called for it.
Shifting crafting means that you will need to rely on other players if you want something.

I agree, there needs to be limitations that mean one player must go to another for something. As it stands any one person can do EVERYTHING. What's the point in buying something when you can just go and get it yourself with less hassle?

Also on the note of suddenly "forgetting" how to craft a sword when you switch from swordsmith to weaponsmith to armoursmith. Most people would choose a profession and stick with it, eventually acquiring mastery at the age of 60, right before dying of old age. So, what about this?

Each profession has 100 points. There is a maximum of 100 points any one player can ever get, and they can put these into any number of professions.

So, a player could spend 50 points in weapon smithing and 50 in armour smithing. He would not have access to either of the high end perks, but could do both mildly well.

Just an idea.


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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:46 am

Zessus wrote:
Half of the Empire is all ready raging over the races limiting your crafting. I'm starting a petition if you agree to Enfour's idea about this or mine, or cav's say +1 (person's name you agree with) as a reply.
I've been wanting SOME form of limitation for ages
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:56 am

Enfourvie wrote:
Zessus wrote:
Half of the Empire is all ready raging over the races limiting your crafting. I'm starting a petition if you agree to Enfour's idea about this or mine, or cav's say +1 (person's name you agree with) as a reply.
I've been wanting SOME form of limitation for ages
I know but the profession is there to do that. It's in the name "Profession" it's what you do. The races shouldn't limit that. It would collide and what not. Ok. I'm a human, I can make tools and also I'm a weaponsmith. So because I'm a human and a weaponsmith. I can make weapons like orcs? wait can I? OH yeah I can. I just can't use them as well even though I somehow figured out how to make that weapon. But I still can't make armor for some reason. Ok I read this book on armor I should be able to make the armor now. Oh crap I can't I forgot. I'm a human and not some half size turd.

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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:26 am

Slightly on topic, is it possible to make spells require a specific weapon and then deal durability damage to it? You could spice up the mages with the staves if they could cast stronger spells at the cost of durability on their weapon. Alternatively, let the stave mitigate mana costs for durability.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:50 am

I have to choose between an orc and a dwarf? Brett, how could you do this to me?
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:49 pm

+1 Enfourvie

Races should not limit what you can make, people learn new things, go to new places.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 pm

The problem with that is that you can't go somewhere new and just know how to make something/want to make something.
Crafting WILL be restricted in some way, so those trying to convince me otherwise...stop.

I'll respond more fully to everyone when I'm out of lecture. I'm on my phone at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:50 pm

Enfourvie wrote:

Inheritance Elves
Are VERY good at magic, good at making weapons, good with bows, and don't cut down their trees.
The Elves in the Inheritance series were also good with swords. So as you said, they're hard to pin down.
It also didn't say they were good at making weapons, there was just one Elf.

Enfourvie +1
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PostSubject: Re: Races/Professions   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:17 pm

I'm going off of standard Mythololgy and traditional stories, not what games come up with.

I had the email come through earlier. It's been confirmed.
Races WILL confirm primary crafting ability.

You will NOT be able to craft items meant for other races initially.

BUT!
Don't flame just yet and read on!

You will be able to LEARN how to craft from other races! I didn't want to say it since it was an idea we threw around but didn't know how to implement.
You will be able to complete a number of quests to be able to craft Orcish items as an Elf, vice versa and through the Races...OR buy the ability from the ipcoming Premium Credit chop.
Credits may be also implemented ingame and acquired through Server Events and holidays.

Nothing has been confirmed as far as the credits yet, but as a summary;


1) Crafting WILL be Race-based.
2) You will be able to learn how to craft other Races' items through quests or Donation Credits.

I will now close this thread.
If you wish to continue the discussion (It WILL be read) and offer ideas and criticism, please create another thread.

Thanks for the ideas, everyone, you helped out quite a bit!
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